Category talk:Military

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Empire forces vs Modern forces

Firstly, THE EU, AND FILMS I, II and III are being disregarded by me. This is mostly because:

a) The EU is difficult, at best, to bring into focus. It includes everything from comic books to paperback dreck to fan fiction dreck, and even video games and Pen and Paper RPGs. A lot of the stuff contradicts itself, there's all sorts of plot holes, and it's just so damn arbitrarily huge that dissecting it all demands an unreasonable amount of time.

b) EU stuff tends to suck. Not all of it is terrible, granted, but looking for quality things tends to be like digging for gold in the Shit Mountains.

c) Episode I, Episode II and Episode III all sucked. They were terrible, terrible films. Star Wars geeks and George Lucas can argue the contrary to their heart's content, just as Charles Manson can continue pleading his innocence: the verdict is already in. If these had been the first offerings, nobody would've cared enough about Star Wars in the first place to even debate this sort of thing.

Yes, I realize that this isn't how 'official Lucasarts canon policy' works. But, given that I think their policy on canon is retarded, I don't really care.


Air superiority, the first – and often most decisive – element of a conflict, would be easily taken by the Americans, given any airforce that wasn't comprised entirely of F-1 Sopwith Camels (and even then, they'd still give the Imperial pilots a run for their money). No TIE shown in the film (and indeed, no vehicle at all) has been shown to have long-range smart weapons of any sort, meaning that Imperials would have to close with the Americans to gun range before even being able to engage them. Without radar or IR missile systems, it's not likely that the Imperials would even have countermeasures or warning systems to deal with the opposing threat.

The HUDs we've seen on Star Wars craft are atrocious. No gun cross, no funnel, no heading tape, no velocity indicators no altitude indicators... dick shit all except for a ridiculous panel that sits on the dash, of all places, rather than in front of the pilot's face, that tells them when their bugged target is right in front of their guns (and this reading doesn't even appear to be entirely accurate). This, of course, limits pilots to visual bandit acquisition, and gives them no help whatsoever in being able to perform offensive or defensive BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers) – which basically means that they may as well be target darts (and if the movies are any evidence, both Imperial and Rebel pilots haven't any notion of what BFM is and why it might be important to them).

To summarize: any TIE not shot out of the sky by a bandit it couldn't even see from several kilometers away by an AMRAAM missile would be either be killed by a Mike just as they started seeing the ergonomically superior planeforms of their needle-nosed adversaries on the horizon, or gunned to pieces by guys who knew whether or not they were at corner airspeed and how to use such knowledge to maintain a 3/9 line relationship with them and blow them away.

Armor units would be the next ones in engagement parameters (alongside mechanized infantry units – of which the Imperials displayed no evidence of possessing). And again, we see a total blow-out in favor of American forces.

AT-STs and AT-ATs are absurd designs from a military perspective. They have gigantic silhouettes, square geometry (no deflective surfaces) and extremely complex moving parts (the walking systems would be prone to all sorts of crippling malfunction and damage in a combat scenario). The AT-ST has been demonstrated as being structurally weak (being completely destroyed by falling on rolling logs and by being caught between a single pair of swinging logs), while the AT-AT seems to fair little better against conventional weaponry (a single well-placed explosive completely destroyed one, while a length of cable catastrophically entangled another). Their only redeeming quality is that the range of their main guns is evidenced to at least on par with that of the MBTs they would be dueling with (EDIT: actually, I correct myself - the AT-AT walkers seem to have a considerable range advantage against the tanks, 18 KM vs 3 KM. Still, I feel that the rest of this argument remains the same. Maximum range remains trumped by maneuverability).

Unfortunately, the MBTs would not be their sole concern. In fact, it's doubtful that they'd even get a crack at taking them on. Close air support units like the F-15E and A-10 Thunderbolt II would've planted Maverick payloads on such big and juicy targets them from kilometers away, and closer in, the latter aircraft would've melted most of the remaining targets with their GAU-8/A Avenger Gatling Guns. Anything after that could be mopped-up by AH-64 Apache attack helicopters (exploiting the the terribly limited firing arcs of the big, dumb and slow targets) with AGM-114 Hellfire missiles and M230 chainguns.

Even assuming they somehow got into a position to trade shots with their targets? It still wouldn't be a fair contest.

In tank to tank duels, maneuverability is survival. The most dangerous tank is one that their opponent doesn't see – and here both the AT-AT and AT-ST just plain fail. An M1A2 Abrams attacking from the side or rear of either walker has total impunity from their weaponry, regardless of their stopping power, and could deliver depleted uranium death from absolute safety. Moreover, the wheeled and treaded American armor would have a much easier time putting itself into a position to support allied infantry; something as cumbersome as an Imperial walker would either have to stand on it's own or rely on rigid formations in order to fight as part of a whole. In a way, they would parallel to the highly ineffective 'infantry tanks' that were devised in WWII – which largely wound-up having the units they were supposed to be supporting instead supporting them.

Infantry fighting, at this stage, would likely go to the Americans even if Imperial Stormtroopers were in an advantageous position. Unfortunately, this is just another blow out – because they just really aren't.

The first thing we have to look at is the rediculous concept being employed in terms of stormtrooper armor. It's always the same! The only time we see something slightly different is when, during the battle of Hoth, the masks were changed (presumably due to the climate; at least they have that adaptability in their favor).

No camouflage. No utility packs or pockets for tools (a knife would've been a Hell of a lot handier to have than a blaster when the Scout Troopers on Endor were faced with hand-to-hand combat with both Han and Leia). Helmets that cripple visibility while offering only minimal protection. Shiny white material that just sticks out like a sore thumb...

From a military standpoint, it's just plain awful.

Then we look at the doctrines. Where are the Imperial Snipers? Paratroopers? Special Forces? We a legion of the Empire's 'best troops' – yet it was just more of the same (in fact, a very credible argument could be made that the equally clumsy and ineffective 'Scout Troopers' are meant to play the part of Special Forces for the Imperial Army. Which is rather sad).

Stormtoopers would be cut down by enemies they had no idea were standing right next to them, picked-off by sharpshooters and run down by IFVs long before they ever had a chance to go toe-to-toe with platoons of Marines. They'd by routed faster than the ARVN during Operation Lam Son, with equally embarrassing results.


The above, of couse, can also be applied against any Star Trek 'army'. Though given that ST armies tend to be composed of nothing aside from Redshirts, the embarassment level increases significantly. -- User:Grinning Moon

  • "No TIE shown in the film (and indeed, no vehicle at all) has been shown to have long-range smart weapons of any sort"
Wrong. X-wings have guided proton torpedoes with long enough range to reach the reactor of the Death Star.
  • "Without radar or IR missile systems, it's not likely that the Imperials would even have countermeasures or warning systems to deal with the opposing threat."
We've saw both Rebel and Imperial sensor systems, we know they have them
  • "that tells them when their bugged target is right in front of their guns (and this reading doesn't even appear to be entirely accurate)."
Sensor jamming was affecting sensors on both sides in the novelization and radio drama. The jamming was hinted at in the movie.
  • "This, of course, limits pilots to visual bandit acquisition, and gives them no help whatsoever in being able to perform offensive or defensive BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers) – which basically means that they may as well be target darts (and if the movies are any evidence, both Imperial and Rebel pilots haven't any notion of what BFM is and why it might be important to them)."
Under the same combat jamming conditions the Imperials can create, the US pilots would be forced to fight at the same visual ranges. That's generally the purpose of sensor jamming.
Also, don't forget that Star Wars starfighters are fast enough to go from orbit-to-ground (and ground-to-orbit) within a minute (Luke's X-wing entering Dagobah in ESB).
(This is, of course, ignoring plenty of other options the Imperials have...)
- Mad 15:38, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Please sign your statements on discussion pages. --Ted C 14:33, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Tough shit, asshole. You don't get to make SW canon policy or the policy for this webpage and wiki.--Darth Servo 14:47, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Points:
  • This wiki (and accompanying webpage) is not about Star Wars vs a real-life military, this is about SW vs Star Trek.
  • Airforce: how can anyone with a functioning brain even begin to compare fighters that can orbit a gas giant in a few minutes with jets that can't even break Mach 5? No real-life jet could survive atmospheric re-entry, while TIEs can enter the thick soup of a gas giant. TIEs are designed to operate in the vacuum of SPACE, where modern jets would be utterly helpless, although as mentioned, TIEs can enter the atmosphere.
  • What was seen in the films (ANH, ROTJ) occured in conditions of HEAVY JAMMING where long-range radar-guided missles would be essentially worthless. However, the EU clearly shows that such missles DO exist and TIEs CAN be equipped with them. Yes, we know you SAY you ignore the prequels because you didn't like them, but the REAL reason is clear--they blow your retarded arguments out of the water.
  • There was more than just the screen to tell the pilot when the target was locked on. It clearly made a beep to let the pilot know. And the target doesn't NEED to be directly in front of the TIE or X-wing. The guns have demonstrated the ability to fire off-axis, most notably with the DS2 but also seen in the TIEs in the trench run and the ISD Avenger shooting asteroids in TESB.
  • Ground combat: You continue your stupid comparison of AT-ATs and tanks. AT-ATs are NOT tanks. All-Terrain Armored-TRANSPORT. Same issue with the AT-ST.
  • Mechanized infantry: say it with me: battle droids. Once again, the material you want to ignore clearly boots your arguments in the ass. Corporate Alliance tank droid, Trade Fed tank droid, Hailfire droids, STAP.
  • From ROTS and AOTC: look up AT-TE, clone turbo tank, SPHA, UT-AT, AT-AP, AT-OT, AT-RT
  • You continue to ignore the observed existance of camo-troops in episode III. But of course you completely ignore that because it crushes your arguments.
  • ROTJ "best troops" were you aware that in a totalitarian dictatorship, "best" often means "most loyal" rather than "most skilled"
  • You already admitted to seeing special forces in the films in the form of the snow troopers. The wiki page on stormtroopers lists different special forces divisions. There are also the scout-troops seen in ROTJ, not to mention all the different forms of trooper seen in ROTS, but of course you ignore all that in order to continue with your idiotic jihad. There are also the Dark Troopers from the EU.
  • We saw a sniper rifle in AOTC. Try WATCHING the prequels instead of just bitching about them.
  • We saw commando style rapelling in ROTS, again try actually WATCHING the prequels. Did you even see ROTS? Hell, in TPM, we saw grappeling hooks that could elevate the person to the higher elevation.
  • Why would the Empire need paratroopers? Paratroopers are for deploying behind enemy lines. The Empire can use their vehicles to deploy them on the ground ready-to-go, anywhere on the planet they want.
  • The helmet includes a built-in sensor suite. It doesn't "criple" visibility. You'd know this if you bothered doing some research. Oh wait, thats in the part of SW canon you admit you delibrately ignore, all to construct your crippled, half-baked version of SW that bears no resemblance to the real thing.
  • Again, let me repeat--the Empire wouldn't need to bother with invading Earth, ground troops or defeating the USAF. They can nuke the whole planet from orbit and theres not a damn thing we could do to stop them.--Darth Servo 16:14, 29 February 2008 (EST)
So, half of the above is EU wank (...and no, me giving it no consideration is not to support my argumets. It's because, as I stated, it's a mountain of shit.
Irrelevant. Its still official, which is a lot more than your OPINION is. And no, "half" is not "EU wank". Most of the above comes from the prequels which you clearly didn't even bother watching.--Darth Servo 17:02, 29 February 2008 (EST)
I could write a fan fic on fanfiction.net, and - according to canon policy at Lucasarts - the parts of said fic that don't violate the 'upper tier' canon would become official canon.
Wrong again. Your fan fiction would need to be approved by lucas-film to gain the same status as the stuff you delibrately ignore.--Darth Servo 17:02, 29 February 2008 (EST)
It's their franchise, so it's not for me to pass any kind of hard judgement here; my personal OPINION is that it's a bad policy).
Again, tough shit. Lucasfilm gets to decide these things, not you. I wonder if GM whines about rules he doesn't like when his favorite sports team loses.--Darth Servo 17:02, 29 February 2008 (EST)

The half that isn't EU wank is damn rude, with positive claims made without supporting evidence. Check you guys later, and good luck developing a healthy community when guests are greeted like this. User:Grinning Moon

You obviously don't understand the culture of SD.net and it has THOUSANDS of members. Rudeness is par for the course. And there was plenty of evidence attached. You just ignored it.--Darth Servo 17:02, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Deletion

This category is recommended for deletion because there are no articles that belong to it, nor do I see much reason for it. GM's discussion might best be moved to his talk page. --Ted C 15:21, 29 February 2008 (EST)

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