Flame on! SpaceBattles.Com Babies Flame on!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Doomriser <doomriser@my-deja.com< >
Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:23:00 GMT
Subject: Wong...is WRONG Part 1

Note to ASVSers: Some (one, perhaps?) denziens have asked me to post
the "Mike Wong is dead" Trekkie essay which is being used on
spacebattles.com to lure Trekkers to the...dumb side.

Here it is in a box much larger than what appears in spacebattles...

The Federation uses replicators to produce a wide variety of simple components and food products, but this does not eliminate the necessity for transport ships, mining operations, etc. Replicators still require "raw foodstock" to produce food according to the TM, and they require refined engineering materials to produce weapons, components for ships, etc. (see the Federation special-technology discussion). Therefore, their industrial capacity is still limited by their transport fleets. This fleet uses very small ships (strangely enough, their merchant marine has even smaller ships than Starfleet, perhaps indicating that the small <1km ships of Starfleet represent the limit of Federation starship construction technology). These ships are restricted to their pitifully slow warp drive, which may explain why so many of their industrial, scientific, political, and military resources are centred on Earth; their propulsion technology restricts them from distributing these resources over a wider area.

(E1701 here) Incorrect. Replicator technology is capable of taking simply molecules (generally hydrogen), and recombining the subatomic particles into larger and more complex combinations, before using microtransporters to beam it to the designated replicator. If replicators really required such large amounts of raw stock for food, and refined elements for machinery, there would of course have to be large storage areas on the Enterprise, which, after thorough study of the blueprints, are not to be found. Therefore, the only possibility, is that replicators use the interstellar hydrogen gathered by the Bussard ramscoops to create the list of foods, tableware, flowers, machinery, and others that we have seen. As for merchant fleets, we have not actually seen true Federation merchant ships. There is no Federation merchant marine. Most the freighters we have seen have been small, privately owned jobs. In addition, with replicator technology, the only shipping required is that of extremely complex materials, such as dilithium, krionide, latnum, among others. Hence, there is no need for multi-kilometer long cargo haulers.

Fleet strength

The Federation dedicated a significant portion of its forces (two complete fleets) to an attack on DS9 in an attempt to regain control of the wormhole during the Dominion war. This task force consisted of roughly 600 ships, including fighters. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Federation possessed no more than a few thousand ships at the time. This is also consistent with dialogue from Way of the Warrior which established that a Klingon attack force comprised over a third of the Klingon military, and that the very first wave of the attack would consist of over a hundred ships. If we assume that there are several waves (three or four) it logically follows that the Klingon fleet is from 1000-2000 ships.

(E1701 here) Few problems with this. Fighters do not make up as significant a portion of Fed fleets as TIE's do in Empire fleets. Applying an Empire fleet basis to Fed fleets shows faulty logic, since all visual refrences in thos episodes shows very few fighters, and mainly capital ships. Assuming that 600 ships are a significant part of the entire Fed fleet is also a mistake. DS9 was not a particularly important place in the Federation until the Dominion War began in earnest. At the time of that episode, DS9 was still a footnote in the Federation, notable only for its position near the only stable wormhole known. Logically, the Federation would not send fully half of their fleet to recapture the station as MW proposes.

The Klingon fleet problems apply as well. Who is to say there weren't dozens of waves of attack, or that the Klingons were using one third of the local fleet, not their entire fleet. If Starfleet is subdivided into various fleets, it stands to reason that so are the Klingons. However, this is all a matter of semantics.

(Alyeska here) Again, he is not paying attention. In the begining of "Way of the Warrior" the first fleet scene at DS9 was infact 1/3 of the entire Klingon fleet. How ever when the Klingon forces had attacked DS9 this was AFTER they had declared war on Cardassia. I scincerly doubt that the Klingons would abandon their entire attack upon Cardassia and pursue the Defiant to DS9. Further evidence shows that the fleet attacking DS9 could not have been 1/3 of the fleet. If the
Klingons had trully lost an entire 1/6 of their fleet attacking ONE space station, then what good is that fleet? If any space station could be so heavily armed then attacking planets would be suicide. Further more such heavy losses would have allowed the federation to fight off the Klingons better in ensuing days and the dominion war would have gone differently.

E1701 already pointed out the errors with the fighters. Another item to take into account that both fleets in this engagement had seen prior service in the war and were down on strength from normal numbers. Given the losses taken in the battle for DS9 (about 1/2 the fed ships were lost) I would assume that similar numbers of ships were lost prior to attacking DS9. Now given that 178 were partial rebuilds (not only from older scrapped ships but also ones with sever damage so my count is actually going to be low) that leaves you with 422 ships. two fleets so that means 211 ships per fleet. Now assume 1/2 losses as in the battle for DS9 (the episode that section 31 came in on had a quote that some battles had fed forces taking 80% losses, so 50% losses is being generous) that means each fleet had originally started at 422 ships. That means of the ships attacking DS9, before that engagement there had been an additional 422 ships, or in other words those two fleets had
been 1000 ships in strength when added together before the battle. But this is all assuming only ONE battle for these fleets before retaking DS9. If you recall as the war progressed the numbers of ships involved in each battle quickly dropped in numbers. The largest battles of the war were in the very begining and the very end. If you recall the attack on chintoka had only 1/3 the number of that that attacked to retake DS9. And whats better is that the forces taking chintokka were of 3 races, not two.

The Federation fleet would logically be of similar or smaller size, because the Klingon fleet has a significant proportion of small BOP-class warships, while the Federation fleet consists entirely of ships which are at least as large as the USS Phoenix from The Wounded. The notable exception is the USS Defiant, but Defiant-class ships are still a rarity in Starfleet.

It is often assumed that the Federation must have constructed 600 ships during the Dominion war to replace their losses, but there are numerous logical problems with this assumption. First, the Federation most likely had a few thousand ships before the war. This means they could have lost hundreds of ships without replacing them, and still been able to muster a 600-ship task force. Second, the Federation was not decisively winning the war, which would seem to be the expected situation if they were capable of replacing ships as quickly as they were being destroyed while the Dominion had limited shipbuilding facilities.

We can use the TM's description of GCS construction scheduling to make reasonable stimates of how quickly the Federation can build starships:
· The USS Galaxy, the USS Yamato, and the USS Enterprise are all constructed in parallel at the Utopia Planitia shipyard facility, which orbits Mars.
· The project begins in 2343 and the design phase is essentially over in 2350.
· Component fabrication begins in 2346, but construction does not begin in earnest until 2350 when assembly begins.
· The first impulse test flight of the Enterprise is in 2358.
· The first warp test flight of the Enterprise is in 2360.
· Final construction and testing continues until 2363.
· The USS Enterprise is commissioned in 2363.
Therefore, it takes 13 years for the Utopia Planitia shipyards to build 3 Galaxy Class starships, or slightly over 4 years per ship. It is sometimes assumed that these ships were constructed so slowly because they were prototypes, but the 13 year timeframe starts AFTER the design is frozen, so it does not include all of the design time that would have greatly lengthened the project duration. Even if we assume that construction rates are doubled for subsequent starships of the same line, it would still take them at leasty 2 years to build a single GCS at a typical shipyard. There are 2 shipyards in the Sol system- the Utopia Planitia shipyards orbiting around Mars, and the Earth Spacedock shipyards orbiting around Earth.

(E1701 here) More problems here. There are most definately more than two shipyards in the Sol system. In fact, there is Utopia Planetia (which can build more than one ship at a time), Spacedock (which can probably support construction of dozens at a time, based on the sheer size of spacedock. There are also McKinley Station, and San Fransisco Fleet Yards. As for construction on the Galaxy class ships, there were four to start with, not three, and obviously, four prototype ship designs built simultaneously will push the yards to its limits. By the time of the Dominion War, the are dozens or more Galaxy Class ships in the fleet, and if construction really took a full two years per ship, there would not be so many of them a mere 7 years after the Enterprise was commisioned. And that is not counting the yards taken up with newer starship designs like Defiant, Akira, and Prometheus.

(Alyeska here) This is NOT true. The federation has Intrepid, Norway, Constitution varriants, Steamrunner, Miranda, Constellation, Sabre, and Oberth class ships. 4 of those ships listed are sitll in production and ALL are smaller then Nebula-class ships. There is Utopia Planitia Mars, McKinely Orbital spacedock, and Spacedock 1. Now in order for Spacedock 1 to be a ship yards it would have to be bigger then the one seen in ST3, ST4, ST5, and ST6. As to the size and number of ships that can be built at ship yards I refer you to a voyager episode (don't rember the name). It starts back several years and shows Janeway at Utopia Planitia. There were a dozen dock facilities with various ships inside them Further more you could tell from the angle that there were docking facilities still to the side of the screen. Further more on the building capacity of federation ships. There is a fleet ship yards at Antares IV, and a ship yards at starbase 134. Now in order for starbases to be ship yards they must be offly big to accomodate those ships.

However, we don't know how many shipyards exist in the entire Federation- the Sol system is obviously a very important star system, since it contains Federation HQ and Starfleet Academy. If we assume that they have one full shipyard for every member planet, they might have as many as 150 shipyards (Captain Picard estimated the number of member planets at 150 in ST:FC). Therefore, they may be able to build as many as 100 ships per year, particularly since most of their
starships are much smaller than the diminutive 600m long GCS ships. Over a period of many decades, they could have easily built 1000-2000 ships, and we know that older ships are often refitted to newer technology rather than being scrapped. After 20 years of service, a ship would be scrapped or put through such an extensive rebuilding program that its refit would be comparable in scope and difficulty to the construction of a new ship.

(E1701 here) That estimate is also discounting the many full starbases in the Federation that are equal or in some cases larger, than Earth Spacedock. There are reportedly hundreds of Starbases (notice the numbering system, with Spacedock as Starbase 1) at least equivilant to Spacedock throughout the Federation, and as we know from various episodes, most are not in orbit of major Federation member worlds, which also likely have their own yards. In other words, there can be
hundreds of Galaxy class ships produced every year, though they are not primary ship designs any longer. The Soverign class is somewhat larger than the Galaxy, yet, just a year after the destrouction of the Enterprise-D, there is a Soverign. That indicates that the wars have forced production into high gear, and the Enterprise-E definately suggests that the Federation is capable of designing a new ship, building it, testing it, and commisioning it, and launching it for active duty in under a year.

(Alyeska here) Yep, but he did NOT estimate the number of colonies those member planets may have had. The actualy number of planets that are contained in the UFP may be in the 200s

The DS9 TM has the following to say about their shipbuilding efforts during the Dominion War:

"Rapid prototyping and refurbishment was initiated on at least 178 partial builds, salvaged hulls, and spaceworthy warp engine systems. The ships that could not be structurally mated and outfitted were hastily launched and flight-tested, more often than not given no formal name or registry number. Some temporary designations for surviving vessels have passed through the formal review process since the operation and may be added to the official ship inventory. As an example of the expedited assembly procedures applied to some of the existing classes, a number of Galaxy-class hulls were pulled from the internal structures work path, equipped with additional weapons, and launched with 65 percent of their spaceframe volumes empty."

This indicates that in addition to normal shipbuilding operations, 178 ships were hastily rushed into service from partial builds and salvage operations. This allows us to gain some sense of scale for the fleet at the time of the Dominion War, since the stripped-down Galaxy Class starships represented a significant percentage of Starfleet's forces in the confrontations with the Dominion. For point of reference, 178 Galaxy Class vessels are equivalent to roughly 13 Imperial Star Destroyers in volume. This reinforces the notion that a few hundred starships (at most) were built during the Dominion War, not several thousand as some overzealous Federation cultists have claimed. Since it took the Federation more than a year to recover from the loss of 37 ships at Wolf 359, this result makes sense.

(E1701 here) There is no evidence to back those statements up. With the Prometheus, Soverign, among others having been built,and tested (if not designed) in under a year, the Galaxies were likely as not, not a significant percentage in the Dominion War, and the video sequences of thousands of starships, very few of which were Galaxies, seems to back this up.


The Federation also constructs numerous facilities other than starships, most importantly star bases. According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia, there are over 500 starbases in, around, and beyond Federation space. These starbases vary widely in size, intent, and capabilities. Some of them are large installations comparable in size to a large Imperial warship, while others are insignificant outposts intended simply to maintain a presence and gather data. Some of them are not even space stations at all, but rather, they are planetary surface installations. It is therefore difficult to estimate how many large military space stations the Federation has, except that the number must be lower than 500.

(Alyeska here) Can't argue to much on that point except for ONE thing. There are over 700 starbases in the federation. On a side note it is know known that the federation has large starbases that build ships like fleet yards. Well in order for the number of ships to be refurbished (178) for just those two fleets and assuming that all yards are like Utopia Planitia (if I didn't, then the federation acctually has MORE ship yards then you give them credit for) then that means with 18 docking facilities per yards and divide it with 178 and that means the federation had to have at least 10 ship yards to accomodate just building those partial rebuilds for the DS9 attack. But that disregards the need to build NEW ships and that there were 5 other fleets that ALSO needed acces to ship yards. To be nice I will only assume a 3x larger number instead of 9X(which is more reasonable considering the other fleets needs and the needs to build more ships) that means the federation has at LEAST 30 ship yards that can build 18 ships apeace. But note these are shipyards with multiple building areas. Your assumption on federation ship yards was a single building bay.

The largest known Federation starbase is Starbase 74 (pictured here), in orbit around the Federation planet Tarsas III. homeworld (seen in "11001001"). It is significantly larger than Earth Spacedock (seen in ST3), even though the two structures have the same superficial appearance. The E-D's size as a proportion of Starbase 74 was similar to the E-Nil's size as a proportion of Earth Spacedock. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that Starbase 74 is approximately 50% longer than Earth Spacedock, and therefore more than 3 times as massive. Earth Spacedock is described in the ST3 ILM size charts as being approximately 12000' (3600m) in diameter and 15250' (4600m) tall (thanks to Ryan McReynolds for bringing this to my attention). The Enterprise-D did not appear any larger with respect to Starbase 74 than the original NCC-1701 Enterprise was with respect to Earth Spacedock, therefore we can conclude that the general dimensions of Starbase 74 are approximately 50% larger (meaning that its volume is 3.4 times larger). This would make Starbase 74 approximately 5400m in diameter, and 6900m in length. It has a mushroom shape, similar to the much larger Bespin Cloud City tibanna gas mine that was once run by Lando Calrissian. Its prominence in Federation space underscores the limitations of the Federation's industrial capacity. The insignificant Deep Space Nine space station is less than 1 mile in diameter (ref. DS9 TM) and even though that diameter is mostly empty space (the station is a ring rather than a sphere), Federation spokespeople consider it an extremely large structure, as seen in the following quote from the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual:

"By any standard of measurement, Deep Space 9 is an extremely large free-flying orbit station irrespective of its origins or current custodians ... at least three major Starfleet starbases dwarf Deep Space Nine in sheer size and mass, but the former Terek Nor is the largest spaceborne materials refining facility known to date."

(E1701 here)Need I point out that the TM is far less canon than the episodes, which number actual starbase's into the hundreds?

(Alyeska here)
Well, lets see. We already know that the current Spacedock/starbase 1 is in fact also a ship yards. Well you are talking about a space dock that is 70 years old. I would suspect with ships as large as Ambasador class ships being built 30 years before DS9 that spacedock 1 would be rebuilt larger to accomodate the newer ships. Further more for spacedock 1 to be a ship yards they would have to INCREASE its size so that it could accomodate the larger ship. After all what good is a
fleet yards if it can't handle anything larger then an Excelssior

Note that the common Star Destroyer dwarfs this "extremely large" space station. Earth Spacedock and Starbase 74 are clearly much larger than Deep Space Nine, so they undoubtedly account for two of the three starbases that dwarf Deep Space Nine. A third starbase exists which has the same superficial appearance as Starbase 74 and Earth Spacedock: this is Starbase 84 (seen in "Phantasms"). Its size is unknown but since its cavernous interior is designed to hold starships, it is
doubtful that it is significantly different in size from the two aforementioned similar starbases. We can therefore conclude that the three "major Starfleet starbases" mentioned in the DS9 TM are probably Starbase 74, Earth Spacedock, and Starbase 84. The rest of the Federation starbases would therefore be the much smaller external-docking variety, or the planetary surface bases.

Comparison with Competing Groups

The DS9 TM contains a very detailed analysis of the military production and conscription rates of the Cardassian Union:

Item Annual Production
Starships Galor-class battlecruiser 63
Galor-class warship 15
Fighter 352
Freighter 188
Heavy penetrator 443
Troops Base-level troops 583,000
Glinn-level officers 21,600
Gul-level officers 8,900
Miscellaneous Planetary disruptors 430
Photon torpedoes 54,300
Offensive EM devices 230
Biogenic weapons 430

This chart (which presumably does not include the activities of their allies, the Dominion) indicates that the Cardassian Union produces approximately 80 capital ships per year, 350 fighters, and 450 "heavy penetrators", which are apparently long-range strategic smart missiles. We know that Galor-class warships are approximately 370 metres in length (ref. DS9 TM), so we can generate a rough volume comparison with respect to a Star Destroyer, by simply cubing the length ratio of 1600/370. We can easily calculate that a Star Destroyer is roughly the size of 80 Galor-class warships using this method, which should be accurate to within a reasonable degree of error. Therefore, the Cardassian Union's entire yearly capital ship production is equivalent to a single Star Destroyer! This is an excellent example of the laughable industrial capacity of the Cardassian Union. We can compare the Klingon Empire and the Cardassians to see that their fleet sizes
are similar. If a typical Cardassian starship has a service life of 20 years like a Federation GCS (ref TM), then an annual production of 80 capital ships would mean that their average fleet size is roughly 1600 ships, assuming that all ships last for their entire service lifetimes without being destroyed in battle. Their annual production of 350 fighters would mean that they can field roughly 7000 fighters. This is completely consistent with the estimated size of the Klingon fleet, at 1000-2000 ships (based on Way of the Warrior). Since the Klingon Empire and Federation both have superior warships to the Cardassian Union, they would each easily overpower the Cardassians even with numerical parity. If either the Klingon Empire or Federation had a much larger number of ships than the 1600 ships available to the Cardassian Union, then they would have been able to overrun the Cardassians almost effortlessly, and without bothering to commit a significant portion of their fleet. Certainly, the Klingons would not have had to commit more than a third of their entire military to their attack on the Cardassian Union if this were the case.

(E1701 here) Once again, the TM falls before onscreen evidence. This applies to the following section as well... The Obsidian Order was able to produce dozens of cruisers that are far larger than Galor-class ships, without having anyone in the Central Government know about it! All in a secret installation, that was probably far less productive than standard Cardassian facilities. (Defiant, DS9). This also suggests that since the Federation and Klingons nearly outgun the Cardassian ships on a one to one basis, yet the Federation and Klingons both consider them a significant threat, obviously, the Cardassians are capable of producing more ships than the TM gives them credit for, even before the advent of the Dominion, who's shipbuilding abilities are stunning.

(Alyeska here) Excuse me? I seem to recall a single Galor class ship being able to detroy a B'rel class BOP in a single blast. Further more Keldon type Galor class ship was able to be a serious threat to the Defiant. As to their continued power, if they were so weak then the cardassian ships turning sides in the end battle in DS9 would not have made such a difference. Afterall the Dominion and Breen forces and outnumbered the Cardassian ships more then 4-1.

Since we know that the Klingons had to commit more than one full third of their military to their attack on the Cardassian Union even with the advantage of complete surprise, and since we know that their advances were greatly slowed once the Cardassian military mobilized against them, we can conclude that the Klingon military is probably no more than three times the size of the Cardassian military. If the Klingons have military forces which are less than three times as powerful as the Cardassian Union's military forces, then we can conclude that they probably produce roughly 240 capital ships per year. This figure is based on an assumption which severely exaggerates Klingon fleet size: the assumption that Klingon and Cardassian ships are tactically equal. A more realistic assessment would account for the large tactical advantage conferred by the Klingons' superior technology (particularly the effect of their cloaking technology), which would reduce the ship-count required for them to overwhelm the Cardassians. However, if we use this estimate in spite of the generous assumption, then we can conclude that the Klingons' average fleet size is no more than 5,000 ships. The Federation probably has a smaller fleet than this, because the average Federation starship is larger and more powerful than the average Klingon starship. Furthermore, in an alternate timeline where the Klingon Empire and the Federation went to war, the Klingons were decisively winning the war (ref. Yesterday's Enterprise). Therefore, the Federation's fleet is probably a few thousand capital ships, as previously stated.

The DS9 TM also describes the Cardassian Union's shipbuilding facilities:

"Starfleet Intelligence believes that the current Cardassian industrial base includes Cardassia Prime ... and at least fifteen other neighboring worlds supporting major scientific and fabrication facilities. One hundred fifty three additional orbital and deep interstellar facilities are thought to make up the bulk of their off-world assets. When applying all of their available resources, the Cardassian Union is capable of producing, deploying, and supporting a large armed fleet and accompanying combat troops on a continuing basis."

This allows us to determine that the Cardassian Union has a total of less than 170 major systems and facilities, which fits very closely with Picard's statement that the Federation has 150 major systems. It also allows us to determine that the Cardassian fleet, at 1600 ships, is considered a "large" fleet by Starfleet Intelligence. It should be noted that 1600 Galor-class capital ships would be equivalent in size to roughly 20 Star Destroyers.


The Federation is a very small organization, which is capable of controlling only a small portion of one quadrant of their galaxy. Their industrial capacity is proportionate to this small scale. Other Star Trek organizations such as the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, Cardassians, Borg, Kazons, etc. are also similarly limited. Of the major established organizations near Federation space, the Borg is by far the most prolific organization, even though it is limited to only a few thousand star systems. The military-industrial might of the Star Wars Galactic Empire dwarfs all of these organizations combined.

(E1701 here) This conclusion is completely unsubstantiated, because we simply do not know the capabilities of the Borg, Dominion, and other powerful organizations. The Borg can rebuild 20% structural damage to a ship within minutes, all with nanites. This leaves the disturbing possibility that they can build new cubes almost as they need them! The fact that they have millions of cubes in that one dimension, and anyone's guess as to what they have in other dimesions, given that they've been expanding into them, the Borg quite possibly have on the order of billions of cubes! The Dominion was also suggested to have been capable of rebuilding an entire fleet of thousands of ships in a matter of months (What We Leave Behind, DS9), which is why the Alliance pressed the attack, despite staggering losses. In fact, at the end of that episode, the impression is given that Starfleet can rebuild relatively quickly as well. The Battle of Wolf 359 is so lamented not because 39 ships were lost, but because it was all to a single ship! While still not on par with the Empire, we can see that the Federation and ST in general industrial production is hardly as limited as MW claims.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Doomriser <doomriser@my-deja.com< >
Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:26:05 GMT
Subject: Wong is... wrong - part 2

Pulse rifle

The most deadly Federation ground weapon is pictured here, in the form of their top of the line phaser rifle seen in STFC. This rifle differs from previous phaser rifles in that it appears to be a pulse-fire weapon (as opposed to a continuous-beam weapon). It also has a rudimentary aiming device attached to its upper surface, which is clearly visible above. The aiming device may appear to be a fully-functional scope at first glance, but it is actually a searchlight with a primitive aiming reticle (it is actually used to illuminate the area in front of a trooper). Later in the film, the back of the device can be clearly seen and the extremely simplistic nature of its aiming
reticle is clearly visible. The range of this weapon is unknown; it was first seen in STFC and it was never used at ranges beyond roughly 15m (which is farther than people think- try taking a 15m tape measure and laying it out). Its power is fairly limited; phaser rifle blasts had no more effect on Borg drones (even before they adapted to the frequency modulations) than bullets from a primitive 20th century "Tommy gun", as seen later in the film. However, it is easily powerful enough to kill a
human being, and probably powerful enough to kill a stormtrooper through his plastoid armour.

(BigBryan here) The range of the Type III Phaser rifle seen in Deep Space Nine after the Captain and the main characters crashed landed on a planet after desroy the major White production facility. There, near the end we clearly see that these phaser rifles were being shot near the top of a canyon at least 200 meters down. So it would be safe to presume that the Pulse Phaser Rifle has a range of at least 200m. Now MW claims that "No more effect on borg drones… then a 20th century Tommy Gun." Well, the phaser rifles were able to effectivley kill them in one shot near the chest area. The phaser rifle is totally 100% accurate if he aim correctly. They is no recoil given by these weapons. A tommy Gun produces recoil, thus you must fire more rounds in order to hit the intended target. MW claims that "Probably powerful enough to kill a stormtrooper through plastoid armor." Probably? That is a strange word to use here. Probably should be replaced with 'It is…' A handheld phaser can destroy a building on level 16. So why presume a phaser rifle could not? Plastoid armor can not take blows to it without making the stortrooper fall over as seen in RTJ when the Eowoks throw what appear to be about 5 pound stones on them. And in books the armor could too be dented by throwing a rod at it. So, as seen in Insurrection, the phaser rifle blew apart a large wall, it is therfore safe to assume the phaser rifle can destroy or melt off the plastoid armor.

(Alyeska here) it is also important to note that the Tommy gun was firing holographic bullets. While normally only energy, when any object in a holodeck is in contact with another object foreign to the holodeck the transporter tech replaces the holo bulet with a real one. Combine that with the safteys being turned off and you get a real bullet that strikes the Borg drones that were trying to get to picard. Another interesting item. Considering the close nature of inter ship combat zoom features would not be needed on any weapons. So if the aiming reticle was capable of zooming out, whats to say the person operating the zoom feature actualy had the weapon zoomed out? Considering the advanced nature of many star trek things the zoom feature would more then likely be a digital thing. In close quarter combat it would be set to normal so that one could aim at objects close to them selves without warping their vision and blocking out potential enemies.

(E1701 here) 15 meters is only a long range for stormies... *grin*. However, the aiming device is unimportant. In fact, the sights on the blasters look more like "primitive" scopes than anything else. No, sights are never going to be super advanced unless they either aim the gun for you, or they are scopes desinged to deal with hostile conditions. No new scope has ever replaced the reliability or usefulness of a good 'ole iron sight. And that is effectively what the sighting devices on the rifles are. However, they are not that inferior. In Insurrection, the good Doctor Crusher manages to destroy a small flying robot that is no larger than the average trap pidgeon. That is the equivilant of nailing a trap pidgeon with a modern .410 shotgun. Damn fine accuracy, and she is by no means a sharpshooter, unlike Will Riker, Worf, and Data. A Tommy gun is notoriuosly inaccurate. Kudos to the Captain for even managing to hit almost every shot. The simple explanation is that the pulse pahser rifles carry about the same kenetic energy as a 10 ga. Shotgun (which is a lot), yet they carry far more firepower, as evidenced in Insurrection when two pulses and a beam blew away a cavern wall on a low setting. And yes, it was a low setting. As shown by one episode of TNG, Riker states that a single blast from a Type II phaser on setting 16 will blow away half of a very large building. In the cavern they were likely toned it down to setting 5 or 6, if that. Type II hand phaser

The standard Federation sidearm is the Type II phaser. According to the TM, it has the same firepower as a Type III phaser rifle but only about 65% of its power-cell capacity. This is somewhat contradictory; it is a miniscule fraction of the size of the Type III phaser rifle and yet it supposedly has equal firepower and 65% of the larger weapon's power-cell capacity. It would appear that much of the bulk in a Type III phaser rifle must be empty space, and that its greater length serves a purpose other than augmenting battery cell capacity. Perhaps the compact Type II hand phaser has very poor range and accuracy compared to the larger weapon. Unlike the pulse rifle seen in STFC, the Type II hand phaser fires a continuous beam.

(BigBryan here) True. It fires a continuos beam. But it can also be set on a wide range area as seen in the DS9 episode where Sisko sets in, most likely on wide spread level 10 to 12 and melts away a stone wall about .5 to .7 meters thick. He neglected to include this here, reason unkown.

(Alyeska here) This information is based on older versions of the weapons from the TNG tech manual. If you were to look at the newer weapons you will see the new type-II phaser looks different from the older version. It is quite posible that since the information in the TNG tech manual was put out they changed the type-II hand phaser and gave it lower settings allowing for greater shot capacity. Another likely thing to happen in that time is that the type-III phaser rifle was upgraded (just like what might have happened to the type-II) and was given greater fire power, greater battery storage, or both at the same time.

(E1701 here) The comparison between type II and III phasers is correct in the TM. However, the difference would not be one of range or accuracy, but usefulness. It is more apt to compare them with modern day weapons. Say, a certain caliber hand rifle, and the same caliber rifle. The pistol is equally as powerful, but the rifle is longer, giving the shooter a long sighting plane, and allowing for more accurate shots. The actual accuracy of the weapon is not a factor, since it is the smae for both.

Type III phaser rifle

The Type III phaser rifle incorporates the same sort of primitive aiming reticle as the STFC phaser rifle, but without the searchlight (which presumably helps troopers navigate through darkened starship corridors during boarding actions because they don't have the kind of sophisticated visual-enhancement technology that is incorporated into stormtrooper helmets). This reticle is transparent when it flips up, and it is cabable of superimposing HUD-style display information upon
its viewable area. However, it is not polarized, because we can see through it from non-orthogonal viewing angles, and there is no visible object on the upper surface of the weapon which can be lined up with the view from the reticle for aiming purposes. Like the Type II hand phaser, the Type III phaser rifle fires continuous beams rather than pulses.

(BigBryan here) How do we know that this is so primitive? It could be a scope using some sort of enhancement technology we have never seen before. It is perfectly logical to conclude that the reticle, with an aiming cursor as of today just is "so primitive" would be an incorect conjecture. The Stormtrooper has adnaved sensors, but why are they so "advanced?" We have that technology today, right now. Theirs is just more compact, which would take probably a decade or less to match.

(Alyeska here) MW just made a very bad mistake here. In the episode of DS9 where they find the crashed Jem'Hadar starship at least one of the type-III phaser rifles has a aiming device identicle to that of the pulse rifle. This implies that the aiming devices can be swapped out, hence a zoom device could infact be placed on the rifle. The other item is that the times where the very primitive pop up aiming reticle scene on the type-III has only been used in situations where there is no range. They were fighting in coridoors, canyons, or caves. One does not need anything else but "Iron Sights" for these conditions. Another way to look at it. An M-16 can be fitted with a scope, but if you see one without a scope, that does not mean it can't use one.

(E1701 here) As I also recall, stormies have a rediculously limited sightline. See ANH when Luke says he "can't see in this thing!" This is also consistent with scenes in all three movies where stormies missed things that they would have seen had their peripheral vision been intact. If that's the trade off, I'll go with flashlights...

Projectile weapons

The Federation is in possession of a weapon that is highly specialized for assassination missions: a transporting projectile weapon, first seen in DS9. Unlike the short-range phaser weapons, this weapon seems to have a very long range because it is equipped with a highly advanced sensor suite that can literally see through walls to a distance of hundreds of metres (although it is unclear whether the weapon actually had this inherent ability, or merely tied into the DS9 station sensor
network). It uses the Federation's transporter technology to dematerialize a projectile while it is being accelerated out of the barrel, and rematerialize it hundreds of metres away just before it strikes the target.

The sensor system, known as an "exographic sensor", is coupled with a monocular eyepiece that feeds sensor data to the wearer's eyes, complete with overlaid graphical data. In form and function, it resembles some advanced tactical devices that were under development in the late 20th century on Earth. The absence of this type of system on phaser rifles is further evidence that they are not designed for long-range use.

This weapon is perhaps the ideal assassination weapon, except for the unfortunate fact that the projectile will carry a ballistic signature due to its passage through the gun barrel. This could potentially be used to trace the weapon back to its user, although the user could circumvent this problem by simply destroying the weapon after using it, or finding and removing the projectile from its eventual destination (but that would require a trip to the site of the body, with all of the accompanying risks of identification).

Defensive measures against this type of weapon should be based on simple subspace sensor jamming. They cannot hit what they cannot see, and this weapon is essentially useless without a clear sensor picture because it can't be manually aimed when sensors are being jammed. However, although this limits the usefulness of the transporting projectile weapon for large-scale ground combat, subspace sensor jamming cannot be used 100% of the time- only during major combat incidents. The transporting projectile weapon may prove to be a serious problem after the inevitable defeat of the Federation, when they go underground and switch to guerilla and terrorism tactics. Although we find the concept of matter/energy "transportation" reprehensible when applied ruthlessly to living beings, it had not occurred to our tacticians that this technology could be used to make superior projectile weapons. After examining the evidence, we find that these weapons are perhaps the ultimate evolution of the projectile weapon, and acquisition of this technology is being made a top priority. In the meantime, the usual sensor jamming protocols are to be observed during all ground combat engagements.

(BigBryan here) MW makes the claim that these bullet signatures could be easily traced. Well in DS9 it took the entire security team to try and fail to track a bullet. They were using advanced searching and evidence gathering methods. If they could not find the culprit after finding a bullet then how could the Empire? The gun can be fired in any location and appear 1 inch or 10 feet away from the target. We do not know it uses the station sensors. This is most likely a tactic to make the weapon appear more primitive then it is. It is most likely the most sophicated projectile weapon to be made, or will be made.

(E1701 here)Actually, since the bullet is in motion when dematerialized, it can be rematerialized heading in whatever direction the shooter wants, thus making ballistic checking impossible. And it is reasonably safe to assume that neither Ezri's nor the assasin's (especially his) rifles used the station's sensors, since such a piggybacking of the station's resources would be too dangerous, and almost certainly caught. The range used in the episode was around a kilometer... but since it is a microstransporter, it could easily have a range in excess of 10 kilometers


Continuous-beam phasers

The TM claims that a Type II hand phaser or Type III phaser rifle can disintegrate 650 m³ of rock with a split-second burst, suggesting that it is capable of destroying thousands of cubic metres of rock per second of continuous firing. However, we have never actually seen a phaser rifle disintegrate anywhere near this much rock. At best, phasers disintegrate a few cubic metres of rock, not thousands of cubic metres per second. Furthermore, their abilities seem to depend greatly on the nature of the rock being disintegrated. Their effectiveness on surface rock in "Rocks and Shoals" was extremely poor- they did not vapourize any noticeable quantities of rock at all (and if they were on a low setting, the Federation officers and enlisted men in question should have been disciplined for incompetence because they took casualties as a result of their inability to quickly eliminate the Jem'Hadar soldiers in their trap).

In "The Mind's Eye" Lt. Commander Data was testing a phaser rifle and determined that its power cell was being drained at a rate of "1.05 megajoules per second", or 1.05MW. This is therefore the maximum power that can be released from a phaser rifle (although inefficiencies in the system will obviously reduce its output to something below its power cell usage). This is totally inadequate to destroy a few cubic metres of rock per second (never mind the thousands of cubic metres per
second attributed to phasers by the TM), but we feel that the NDF chain reactions discussed in the phaser analysis must compensate for this. Many Federation cultists are loathe to relinquish their claims about huge rock destruction capability. They generally attempt to defend their claims using tactics like the following:

1. Claiming that the TM is canon. It is official but not canon, and it is subordinate to the canon episodes and films.
2. Mentioning numerous incidents in which a phaser was used to destroy one or two cubic metres of rock (blowing a hole in a wall, or blasting a small tunnel into a cavern, etc). We don't understand why they think these incidents "prove" that a hand phaser can destroy hundreds of cubic metres of rock. If you can demonstrate the ability to do X joules of work, does this prove that you can also do 100X joules of work?
3. Misrepresentation of canon incidents. As an example, some cultists point to "Ensigns of Command" as an example of a Federation hand phaser destroying a long aquaduct and therefore demonstrating its ability to destroy hundreds or thousands of cubic metres of rock with a short burst. However, anyone who has actually watched the episode can see that the aquaduct was not destroyed. In this episode, Data fired his Type II hand phaser at the terminus of a long aquaduct, which served the population of a planet that was about to be colonized by the Sheliak Corporate. The phaser blast caused a shower of sparks where it struck the aquaduct, and it initiated a chain-reaction which moved up the mountain. This chain-reaction was visible as an orange glow, and it moved quickly up the aquaduct, toward the mountain which fed the system. However, there was no damage to the aquaduct itself- the chain reaction moved through the water. After the chain reaction passed, the aquaduct was still perfectly intact, and completely visible. Even the point of impact was visibly undamaged, and Data actually walked right
up to it moments later. The phaser blast did not even appear to disrupt the water; water was still flowing through the aquaduct after the incident, but if the water throughout the entire system had been disrupted at a subatomic level, it would have taken many minutes for new water to flow down the mountain and reach the terminus.

(Alyeska here) Ok… For starters phasers have multiple settings. Second item, in the episode where Picard is captured by the Cardassians one scene shows a hand phaser being used to desentegrate a hole in rock to get to another cave. The hole was over 30 meters long.

(E1701 here)The TM is reffering to setting 16, which as indicated by Riker, can vape half of a large facility. The fact that we have never seen such a high setting used before does not contradict it.

Pulse phasers

In general, the effect of a pulse rifle is very similar to that of a 20th century shotgun, as seen in STFC and "Siege of AR-588" among other incidents. It generally hits the target with sufficient energy to knock the victim down and cause death or serious injury, and it inflicts light scoring on bulkheads or doors. In most respects, it appears to be very similar in terms of tactical effectiveness to an Imperial blaster rifle, although its range appears to be lower.

It is unclear why they switched from the continuous-beam phasers to the newer pulse phasers, especially since the pulse phasers appear to be less powerful than the old continuous-beam phasers (as demonstrated by their relative inability to disintegrate significant amounts of rock). We can only surmise that the pulse phasers must address some pre-existing deficiency at the expense of sheer firepower. Perhaps the new weapons can fire more shots before running out of power, or perhaps
they have greater range or superior durability (a critical characteristic for a ground combat weapon which is likely to suffer from callous treatment on a regular basis). It is possible that durability was a major factor; Major Kira mentioned reliability problems with the older phaser models in "Return to Grace".

Battery-cell Capacity

The TM claims that the storage capacities of Type I, II, and III hand phasers are 7.2 TJ, 45 TJ, and 68 TJ respectively. The DS9 TM claims that upgraded Type II and Type III phasers now carry 88 TJ and 345 TJ respectively, and that Bajoran, Klingon, Cardassian, and Jem'Hadar weapons carry 1.2 TJ, 65 TJ, 98 TJ, and 1540TJ respectively. These numbers are consistently in the TJ range, but they appear to be consistently wrong.

(Alyeska here) That made no sense. The bajoran weapons are obviously the weakest and most likely not capable of much beyond scorching the flesh of the enemy. It directly tells that the weapons had been UPGRADED by the time the DS9 TM came out. Further more you can see that Klingon weapons are have more TJ then fed weapons while Cardassians have less. Now the Klingon weapon has no real settings and its TJ doesn't mean to much in comparing it to the federation weapon, same with the Cardassian. As to the Dominion, I assume you meant 154. Also looking at the TM it seems that MW may have been comparing the other races against the Dominions rifle weapon. No where do I see inconsistencies, but rather some one using numbers to try to confuse some one reading it and persuade them to see the wrong thing.

TM errors are not unprecedented; no one questions that the tactical effectiveness of shipboard phaser banks is far larger than the 5.1MW and 4.8MW figures in the TM and DS9 TM, and no one questions that Federation shields are capable of withstanding much more than 550 MW even though the DS9 TM says otherwise. In the case of hand weapon battery cells, Data indicated that the power cell drain was only 1.05MW in "The Mind's Eye" and Kira indicated that Cardassian phaser pistols have an energy capacity of 4.7 MJ in "Return to Grace". Both canon incidents override the TM in the event of a conflict.

Furthermore, hand phasers have been overloaded and detonated numerous times in the history of the Federation:
1. Roga Danar detonated a hand phaser inside the Enterprise-D, in one of the access tunnels. The explosion blew a panel out into the tunnel, with accompanying flames and a bright flash. There was no significant damage to the structure of the tunnel itself, nor were there any of the shockwave and firestorm effects that one would expect from a multi-kiloton blast (equivalent to a low-yield nuclear weapon).
2. Ro Laren set a Romulan hand disruptor on overload inside Ten Forward in "The Next Phase", and then dove behind some furniture, also in Ten Forward, so that she would not be injured by the blast. This indicates that a hand disruptor overload is equivalent, at best, to less than a kilogram of TNT. Otherwise, she would have been killed by being so close to the explosion. This supports the MW-range estimates of hand phaser output, since disruptors and phasers are similar in observed
behaviour and tactical effectiveness.

If a Type II hand phaser truly carries 88 TJ, then Roga Danar's overload phaser should have exploded with a yield equivalent to 11 kilotons, or 70% of the Hiroshima nuclear blast in World War 2. Even if a phaser overload only releases the energy in the prefire chamber (presumably equal to one shot), we know that individual shot yields must be at least 1/1000th of the battery-cell capacity if not much more, since they cannot fire more than a thousand shots (if that many) before recharging (in "Siege of AR-588" we saw them keeping spare cells, which would be unnecessary if a single cell carries thousands of shots). So, even if an overload releases only one shot worth of energy, it would still be equivalent to several tons of TNT if the TM's battery cell capacity claims are to be believed. Ro Laren's disruptor pistol explosion did not injure her even though she was within 20 metres of the blast, which would be utterly ridiculous if the overload detonation was equivalent to several tons (or worse yet, kilotons), as some Federation cultists claim.

(Alyeska here) a nuclear reactor overloading does not have the same firepower of an atomic weapon. A phaser is not designed as a bomb, while the blast would be dangerous that is not its primary purpose. However taking that powersource and specifically building a bomb out of it you can get something much more powerfull.


The Federation has apparently not learned the lessons of its own homeworld's violent history. As early as their 20th century, it was widely recognized that range, accuracy, and rates of fire are more important than calibre in projectile weapons. Similarly, range, accuracy, and rates of fire are more important than destructive capability in energy weapons. To put the problem simply, what is the use of being able to cause large rock-slides if someone is using an extreme long-range weapon to kill you at a range so far that they cannot be seen with the naked eye? This is the fundamental problem with Federation weapon technology. Even their top-of-the-line ground combat weapon incorporates virtually no targeting assistance! Their standard sidearm has absolutely nothing (no sights, no scope), and their two phaser rifles incorporate only a rudimentary aiming reticle rather than a full-blown scope.

(Alyeska here) I have already discussed this area

Even if we assume design incompetence, it is inevitable that someone would have field-modified a phaser rifle to add just such an enhancement. But no such enhancement has ever been seen, so the unavoidable conclusion is that such enhancements don't exist for a reason. Some Federation cultists claim that tricorder readings may assist in locating targets, but they won't help the user physically aim the weapon, unlike the simple addition of sights and scopes. The problem is even worse with their smaller hand phasers, which are shaped rather like 20th century electric shavers and would be extremely difficult to aim at distant targets. The only logical conclusion is that phaser range is extremely limited so there is simply no point in adding scopes and sights, both of which are only useful for targeting
objects which are quite far away. This conclusion is bolstered by the sophisticated targeting system used on the transporting projectile weapon. Since they don't incorporate this system into their standard phaser weapons, the logical conclusion would be that the phaser weapon must not have the range to take advantage of such an enhancement.

Some Federation cultists believe that the small yellow plate on top of a phaser rifle (at top of page) is a full-blown scope. However, it is obviously a crude aiming reticle rather than a scope, and only serves the same purpose as the raised sighting protrusions on a 20th century handgun. Predictably, some Federation cultists continue to insist that the plate is a scope, or that it might even be superior to a scope because it has a bunch of flashy HUD displays on it. But it still doesn't help to aim the weapon! HUD displays are visually appealing but they don't make up for the fact that a scope forces you to look only in the direction that the scope permits you to look. It is impossible to look through a scope at any angle other than the scope's axis. With a flat semi-transparent HUD plate, you can look through the plate from any angle you wish, and there is no mechanism whatsoever for forcing you to look in the right direction so that you are perfectly aligned with the weapon. This problem is known as parallax, and it makes the aiming reticle (if that's what it is) virtually useless in spite of its attractive but useless HUD indicators. If the plate is indeed a HUD-assisted aiming reticle, this merely continues a well-established trend of decorative but useless Federation technology.

(Alyeska here) Tricorders do not have to be aimed in the direction they are scanning. Multiple episodes have shown this, its just that many of the actors like to turn when operating the tricorder. And again I have already mentioned about the zoom features.

A somewhat bizarre Federation cultist claim is the claim that Federation phaser rifles automatically track and target objects, and then fire off-axis at those targets. Since this capability has never been demonstrated in any televised episode or movie and has never been described in the ST Encyclopedia or TM, we can only conclude that Federation cultists are so fanatical that they are willing to invent new capabilities out of thin air in order to exaggerate Federation ground combat effectiveness.

(Alyeska here) this is a clear case of not even reading the DS9 TM. It is stated that the newer pulse phaser rifles have tracking sensors. The rifle tells you when you are on target and when to shoot. Even better is that it can be set to fire when it happens across the target. It won't target for you but when you bring the weapon properly on target it will fire FOR you. This also proves that the "Primitive" aiming recticle is not so primitive.

(E1701 here) Incorrect. It is quite possible to look off-axis with a scope. The phaser rifles we have seen have been specifically designed to fight in close quarters, where scope use would be useless... even downright suicidal. In such cases, hipshooting and iron sights are still the most effective.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Doomriser <doomriser@my-deja.com< >
Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:28:24 GMT
Subject: Wong is... wrong - part 3

Obsoleted Weapons

The Federation appears to have used mortars and grenades in its past. In "Arena" we saw a TOS-era Federation officer named Captain Kirk, launching a "photon grenade" from a mortar. His first officer claimed that it was dangerous even at a range of 1 kilometre, but when the grenade was actually launched and detonated we saw no damage in their vicinity whatsoever (no flying debris, no mushroom cloud, no shockwave, no fireball, no seismic disruptions, no heating or disruption of the
rocks and dirt in their area, etc). It is therefore most likely that Spock was concerned that Kirk would damage his eyesight by looking at the flash, because they hunched down behind some rocks and were perfectly safe. If the weapon actually released nuclear-yield EM radiation, hunching down behind a rock would not have saved them. Nuclear-yield EM radiation would superheat the surrounding air and create a shockwave, which would have been seen and felt. This did not happen.

(Alyeska here) an episode of TNG specifically mentions the use of photon grenades. The other item is that the mortars used by the klingons are most likely weaker weapons since klingons do like close combat. Their apparent weakness may actually be that the weapon is meant to stun the enemy which it did quite effectively.

(E1701 here) As I recall, the photon grenade also landed behind a rather large rocky hill. And no Federation weapon seen to date has been so crude as to require a mushroom cloud or massive ground-shaking explosion. Also, another possibility backed up by the visulas indicated that the hill may have been much farther than a kilometer away.

Defensive Technologies

Federation troopers do not use armor, sealed environmental suits, or similar protective technologies in ground combat. In every incident of Federation ground combat seen onscreen up to this point, troopers have worn no protective equipment whatsoever, and have often died as a result.

(Alyeska here) true federation soldiers have rarely been scene. But in Star Trek 3 and 6 actual troops in security on the enterprise had on armor and helmets. I find it odd that MW has left out Isomagnetic Disintegrators, these weapons have a noticeable range and firepower. Given the limited firepower demonstrated in Insurrection and the fact that federation weapons are capable of multiple settings it is easy to see that this weapon has a much higher firepower output then scene, possibly even enough to destroy a AT-ST given that vehicles weakness.

Personal shields

Vague references to personal defensive shields have been made by some Federation cultists, but no trooper has ever deflected an energy weapon with a personal deflector shield in any televised episode or movie. Worf jury-rigged a personal deflector shield to block holographic 19th century handgun projectiles in "A Fistful of Datas" and temporal shields were devised for "Timescape", but no Federation personal energy shields were ever seen being used onscreen. Personal force-fields were briefly mentioned in "Paradise Lost" and "Return to Grace", but they were probably particle-shields rather than energy-shields (like the one that Worf cobbled together in "A Fistful of Datas"). Since they were never seen onscreen, their capabilities are unknown. But if they were effective against energy weapons, we would have seen them by now. They must be effective only against projectile weapons.

(Alyeska here) this is a rather bad argument. First off Worf cobelled that shield together using a small combination of old and new technology. Second item is the assumption that we have not scene the personal deflectors used they must only be projectile defense. We are supposed to deal with canon evidence. Given that more then once energy blocking shields have been scene it is easy to assume that the personal deflectors are energy blocking capable. But their power source might be the problem and reason they have been rarely used. But on the subject of just using a shield to block projectiles. Blasters have been described accelerated plasma, a projectile. Given this, projectile shields would infact work against blasters.

In "Rocks and Shoals", "Way of the Warrior", "The Arena", and many other episodes we saw Federation troopers and officers marching into combat without benefit of personal shields, and in all those cases they suffered casualties as a result. We must therefore conclude that the Federation does not possess personal shields capable of withstanding energy weapons, in spite of the erroneous and fanatical Federation cultist claims to the contrary.

(Alyeska here) already adressed this issue, but here is something else. Federation troops can be healed and sent back into combat much.
(E1701 here) Ah, but we have seen combat armor. In ST:V, Kirk leads an ill-fated assault on Paradise City. All of the guards wear heavy body armor, which is more than capable of standing up to the projectile weapons of the inhabitants. Remeber, these were just crewmen. Full Federation troopers would no doubt be even better protected. IIRC, there have been no visuals of Fed combat troops in a full scale battle

Personal cloaks

An interesting technology is the personal cloaking field, seen in STI. However, since we have only seen it used against a primitive agrarian culture, we have no idea whether it is sophisticated enough to be useful against an advanced society. We suspect it is not, since it is never used against the various advanced societies that the Federation encounters.

Why would it be useful against a primitive agrarian society but not an advanced society? The cloak probably won't stop sophisticated sensor systems from "seeing" the soldier. It is likely that the cloak "leaks" heated gases, infrared radiation, and other traces of the soldier's presence (particularly since otherwise, the implication is that the soldier would eventually heat up and suffocate inside his sealed environment).

(Alyeska here) given the empires lack of ability to even scan and detect people hiding under the floor of a ship it is highly unlikely they will be able to detect people using the personal cloaking devices. Further more there is no canon evidence that the helmets used by storm troopers enhance their senses. Many books even say how the helmets take away stormtroopers senses by limiting their field of vision.

(E1701 here) The cloaks were a new Federation tech. Before using such bulky suits for combat, they obviously felt that a trial run on a primitive planet would be in order. The War ended before we saw the suits used in combat

Other Societies:

The Gorn and Klingons

Although the Federation has extremely limited ground weapons, other societies in their galaxy seem to have developed a somewhat wider variety of weaponry. The Gorns and the Klingons both use mortar-launched photon grenades heavily in ground combat, but the Federation has apparently removed these weapons from its armoury since the TOS era. Photon grenades are not very powerful. Both the Gorn and Klingon photon grenades were seen to explode within 6 feet of human targets who not only survived but were not even seriously injured. The Gorn are not likely to intervene in our war against the Federation, but we project a very high probability that the Klingons will become involved.

(Alyeska here) I have already discussed about the klingon photon grenades, and given the firepower of other items it is within reason that the mortars can be given larger warheads

The Dominion

The Dominion uses an interesting technology which our tacticians have dubbed the "chameleon net". It appears to be a personal cloaking device which their soldiers can use to infiltrate enemy installations, and unlike the Federation cloak, it is known to be effective against soldiers equipped with sophisticated sensor systems. Our scientists have repeatedly claimed that such technology would be dangerous to life forms, but apparently the Gem Haddar have very short life-spans and little or no concern for their own lives. This makes them potentially quite dangerous, but luckily they can be killed simply by initiating a planetary blockade. They rely on a substance known as "white" which appears to be an addictive narcotic- without it, they become irrational and will actually begin killing one another. The Dominion is not likely to intervene in our war against the Federation; almost all of their forces are trapped in their galaxy's "gamma quadrant" by the closure of a wormhole, and they use the same primitive propulsion technology as the Federation.

(Alyeska here) It is impossible to heal injurries taken from Dominion weapons without a Bacta tank in quick access. Another interesting item is the ability of Dominion ships to beam through shields.

(E1701 here)Uhh... it is called Ketracel-White, as explained in every single episode featuring the Jem'Haddar. Simple fact there...

The Borg

Unlike the Federation, the Borg does possess personal shielding technology. However, it appears to be the polar opposite of Federation shielding technology- while we have seen that the Federation is capable of building personal particle-shields but not energy shields, we have seen that Borg drones have energy shields but not particle shields. This was evidenced in ST:FC when numerous Borg drones were killed by holographic 20th century machine-gun bullets, knives, and even hand-to-
hand combat techniques.

(E1701 here) The drones had not adpted to kenetic weapons. Their ships can, therefore, logically, given the chance, so can the drones.

Physical contact with Borg drones is extremely dangerous; they inject combatants with nanotechnology devices which appear to take command of the victim's central nervous system and put the victim under Borg control very quickly- some evidence suggests the elapsed time is less than one minute. We don't know whether their nanoprobe injection tubules are capable of piercing stormtrooper armour, but obviously we feel that stormtroopers should be briefed on this possibility. Since they don't appear to employ any particle shielding and they use primitive "human wave" tactics, we recommend that blasters be discarded in favour of flechette launchers such as the Golan Arms FC-1 flechette launcher. Borg shield effectiveness against weapons like wrist rockets, flame-throwers, and sonic rifles is also unknown. However, all of those weapons are primarily matter-based weapons and will probably be effective. Another possibility is to exclusively use combat droids.

(Alyeska here) Borg nano tubles are so strong they can pierce any known substance and any forcefield under shuttle craft strength. Borg can beam through shields. Borg can learn information by assimilating a target and can learn ways to adapt to the enemy. The borg also HAVE been shown to have KE shields. In the episode of Voyager where they acidently created a drone it was equiped with shields capable of deflecting other drones. While he was a product of future and present
technology the shield itself was derived from information from Voyagers data banks. Further more borg do infact have ranged weapons. In both TNG and Voyager when odds are against the borg disrupters will be used.

The Borg are not likely to intervene in our war with the Federation; in spite of vast empire-building aspirations attributed to them, they appear to be expanding at an extremely slow pace, and have made only a half-hearted attempt to assimilate the Federation.

(Alyeska here) The borg would see the Empire with its large navy and new (not advanced or better, only new to them) technology and determine it to be both a threat and way to get new technology and inforamation.

Environmental Protection

The environmental protection given to Federation ground soldiers is non-existent. They walk into combat situations without gas masks to protect against nerve gas or sealed suits to protect against corrosive chemicals, biological agents, or harsh environmental conditions. They have environmental suits at their disposal, but those suits afford their wearers poor freedom of movement, and the only time they have ever been used in a combat situation was the space-walk in ST:FC.

(Alyeska here) the only time seen in combat, but we have seen their use before. Its just that all the other times their have been combat there was no need for environmental suits. Why go running around the battlefield in a space suit when you don't need to?

Although some Federation cultists claim they have personal force-fields, they cannot function as complete environmental isolation systems since the users need to continue breathing while operating the force-field. They are probably similar to the device that Worf cobbled together in "A Fistful of Datas". If they were capable of complete environmental isolation and processing of contained air, then Federation soldiers wouldn't need spacesuits to "go outside".

(Alyeska here) as scene in more then one occasion the ship would scan the planet first before sending down an away team. In 1 episode of TOS suits were needed before landing on a planet. In DS9 suits were worn untill Embok Nor had its life support reinstated. In Voyager suits have been worn on planets with hostile conditions.

Sensory Enhancement

Starfleet officers carry portable tricorder units to gather information about their environment, but those tricorder units are not tactically useful. Although they can use their tricorders to determine if an enemy soldier is somewhere ahead, they cannot use them to see through darkness or smoke to actually shoot that enemy soldier. Instead, their targeting abilities are entirely limited to what they can accomplish with the unaided human eye, which makes their sensory capabilities markedly inferior to those of Imperial stormtroopers.

(Alyeska here) I have already commented on this. There is no canon evidence to show that stormtroopers have any sensory enhancement items. Infact more then one book portrays them to be limited due to the helmet. On the otherhand tricorders can scan any direction regardless of the direction pointed. More then one episode gives the tricorder a range greater then 2 km.

Rapid Deployment Technology

As we have discovered previously, the Federation ruthlessly employs the horrifying disintegration/duplication process known euphemistically as "transportation". This allows them to place their troops anywhere they choose on the surface of a planet, with pinpoint precision. This is a significant problem in combat, since orbital starships or even well-equipped ground installations can deploy troops at will, wherever they wish. As a result, our troops have to constantly be on the watch
for attacks from any direction. There are two major counter-measures that we can use to combat this threat:

· Sensor jamming. They cannot transport without accurate sensor readings of the terrain that they will transport to. We therefore recommend that all ground units and armour units carry jamming equipment. Without accurate sensor readings it will be extremely dangerous for Federation troopers to transport behind our units. The replicated ("transported") troopers might materialize in mid-air and fall to their deaths, or they might materialize several metres below the ground surface, and die instantly.

(Alyeska here) Federation sensors can detect multiple things. They use more then just subspace sensors(whish there is no proof that SW can infact jam them). Even if they can't detect the range for transport with susbspace they can use visual sensors to determine range or detect gravity differences to find the location needed to transport soldiers.

· Theatre shields: we recommend rapid deployment of low-powered theatre shields (such as battlefield versions of the large "canopy" shield that the Rebels deployed in the Battle of Hoth to prevent orbital bombardment). Jamming makes transportation risky, but shields can prevent transporter usage entirely. Since Star Destroyers carry pre-fabricated ground bases (ref. SWE), we should be able to establish theatre shields very quickly and easily. Although some Federation cultists doubt that our energy shields would prevent transporter usage, it is not difficult to demonstrate that transporters are very easy to disrupt:

· In "Symbiosis" transporter functions were disrupted throughout an entire star system by solar flares in its star. This indicates that ambient EM radiation can easily disrupt transporters.

(Alyeska here) that was one star. There are thousands of types of stars with mulitple variables. And here is the clincher, to save the people on the freighters the Enterprise beamed them off. Further more the survivors were beamed back to their respective planets. Transporters were slightly disrupted on a ship with older transporters (more then once advances have been shown up to DS9). There is a big difference between making transportation slightly more time consuming and actually preventing it.

· In "Ensigns of Command" ambient "hyperonic" radiation disrupted transporter operation and hand phaser operation, even though it was so weak that it apparently had no ionizing effects (settlers had actually adapted to the radiation and were suffering no ill effects from it, so it couldn't have been ionizing radiation).

(Alyeska here) incorrect, it was stated that a vacine of sorts had to be developed and that hundreds of settlers died before that was done

· In "Power Play", electrical storms in a planet's atmosphere prevented transporter operation. This indicates that low-level magnetic fields and electrical discharge can disrupt transporter function.

(Alyeska here) storms can varry greatly. There is a big difference between a snow storm and a thunder storm. Further more it has been shown more then one time that these events were very rare or that the storm had such force that it was imposible to beam and also hazardous for the crew even if they had beamed.

· In ST6, a weak magnetic field protected the Klingon penal asteroid where Kirk and McCoy were being held prisoner. Kirk, McCoy, and a shape-shifter were able to walk out of this field effortlessly, but it still made transport impossible.

(Alyeska here) no where was it stated that the magnetic shield was weak. That was just an assumption. The power behind that shield was enough to prevent beaming up, but not even capable of stopping planetary attack. Another item is that the shield prevented ships from beaming people OFF planet, but the Klingons were still able to beam DOWN to the planet.

Although Federation transporter technology represents a highly dangerous potential threat, it can be completely nullified through the use of sensor jamming and theatre shields.

(Alyeska here) Given the fact that there is no evidence supporting that SW shields can actually prevent phasers from slicing and dicing enemy targets it is totally posible to use a phaser beam to encircle a transporter beam and to beam people through shields. But then again shields may be of little use against transporters.

Federation Cultist Objections

Virtually all Federation cultist objections to these conclusions fall into one large category: "ignore the episodes; the TM says that they're more powerful than you think!". Unfortunately for Federation cultists, episodes cannot be ignored. At no time in the entire history of televised or filmed Star Trek ground combat has a hand phaser been shown destroying 650 cubic metres of rock. Not once! At numerous times, this capability would have been very useful and in fact would have given them an instant victory. And yet it wasn't used in "Rocks and Shoals", "The Siege of AR-588", and many other incidents when it would have easily given them instant victory.

(Alyeska here) as stated phasers have mulitple settings. The times they were used with power they used the setting that was desired. And as I stated earlier there have been episodes that show the phasers have power close to what the TM claims.

The stock cultist objection to this fact is that the writers and producers will not depict phasers being as powerful "as they should be" for dramatic purposes. However, what "they should be" is irrelevant. What they are is all that matters, and in the canon episodes and films, they are powerful hand weapons but they are not capable of rearranging local geography as Federation cultists claim.

(Alyeska here) again, totally ignoring the fact that phasers have multiple settings.


The Federation has completely neglected the field of ground combat in its technological development for some unknown reason. As a result, their ground forces have actually become tactically weaker since their own 20th century! While their 20th century armies used artillery, gas, armored vehicles, infra-red viewfinders, light-amplification goggles, long-range automatic weapons, and grenades, their current armies send men on foot into combat situations with short-range line-of-sight hand weapons, no infrared or light-amplification goggles, zero artillery support, and no armored vehicles.

(Alyeska here) MW is basing this conclusion of false and biased items. I have already proved in several casses where he was out right wrong, or more then one conclussion is posible. One of the biggest items is that armored vehicles, personal armor, and bunkers are of little use when there are weapons capable of destroying them easily, and all are capable of being carried by one person. Again Tricorders are an advantage that federation soldiers have. Another interesting item is that the federation has site to site transporters.

As a consequence of these weaknesses, our ground forces will be able to slaughter Federation forces with little or no resistance. The only real question is which tactic we should use: blasting them from many kilometres away with long-range artillery fire or laser rifles, crushing them with an armored assault, killing them with chemical or biological weapons, or simply using the cover of night-fall or smoke screens to attack with stormtroopers that can easily see through such petty annoyances as darkness and smoke.

(Alyeska here) ROFL!!!!!

Click here to return to the main Hate Mail page.

Valid HTML 4.01!Valid CSS!This website is owned and maintained by Michael Wong
This site is not affiliated with Lucasfilm or Paramount
All associated materials are used under "Fair Use" provisions of copyright law.
All original content by Michael Wong is copyrighted © 1998,2004.
Click here to go to the main page